Last week I posted that the Caldari Militia Farmers were back with vengeance. As they hit tier 3, I spend more and more time Benny Hilling around our core station systems trying to keep them from capturing complexes which would ultimately lock us out of our home systems.
These null-bear alts don't care about the war, they are just here to farm LP which reduces the fun of the game for us real faction war players. This Eve Online not a Wack-a-Mole Online. CCP Manifest (Assuming it was Ned) posted on Facebook yesterday the standard Caldari Militia* Condor Fit.
My earlier idea for nerfing warp core stabs by increasing power grid for them was not popular due to the knock-on effect on fitting an effective tank. But the issue is the current targeting debuff caused by stabs doesn't stop farmers. They don't care they need to get close to the rat to target it. They don't care it takes 30 seconds to lock it. A Merlin is fine for most plex as its point-blank range usually anyway. A Tristan with a full rack of stabs is also fine. Enter plex, deploy drones, set to aggressive, rat attacks, dead rat, receive LP, no real risk.
So how about some REAL debuffs to warp core stabs:-
OK, so that last one is a bit tongue in cheek. However the top two might actually work effectively. It doesn't effect ships that need to be stabbed such as industrialists and transports venturing into low-sec. You can still tank your travel-fit ship and have a chance of burning back to gate if the camp has more points than you have stabs.
Stabs do not belong on a ship that is in faction war unless you are transporting. So lets then apply a direct debuff to the ships combat abilities when you add warp core stabilisers. Add two stabs, and you pretty much cannot kill anything. You can still get your transport through low-sec. You can still travel fit your battlecruiser. What you cannot do is fit stabs AND fight. If you cannot kill that NPC rat in a faction war plex then you cannot get the timer to run down. Turn on rat re-spawns and we are sorted.
Job done.
Either that or Shadows of The Federation should re-form, join the Gallente Militia again, get Gallactica back into Eve and help out so I can spend more time roaming for PvP than chasing stabbed LP farmers.
What? They are? Super job!
These null-bear alts don't care about the war, they are just here to farm LP which reduces the fun of the game for us real faction war players. This Eve Online not a Wack-a-Mole Online. CCP Manifest (Assuming it was Ned) posted on Facebook yesterday the standard Caldari Militia* Condor Fit.
My earlier idea for nerfing warp core stabs by increasing power grid for them was not popular due to the knock-on effect on fitting an effective tank. But the issue is the current targeting debuff caused by stabs doesn't stop farmers. They don't care they need to get close to the rat to target it. They don't care it takes 30 seconds to lock it. A Merlin is fine for most plex as its point-blank range usually anyway. A Tristan with a full rack of stabs is also fine. Enter plex, deploy drones, set to aggressive, rat attacks, dead rat, receive LP, no real risk.
So how about some REAL debuffs to warp core stabs:-
- -80% to launcher and turret rate of fire.
- -80% to drone damage.
- Turns ship hull pink.
OK, so that last one is a bit tongue in cheek. However the top two might actually work effectively. It doesn't effect ships that need to be stabbed such as industrialists and transports venturing into low-sec. You can still tank your travel-fit ship and have a chance of burning back to gate if the camp has more points than you have stabs.
Stabs do not belong on a ship that is in faction war unless you are transporting. So lets then apply a direct debuff to the ships combat abilities when you add warp core stabilisers. Add two stabs, and you pretty much cannot kill anything. You can still get your transport through low-sec. You can still travel fit your battlecruiser. What you cannot do is fit stabs AND fight. If you cannot kill that NPC rat in a faction war plex then you cannot get the timer to run down. Turn on rat re-spawns and we are sorted.
Job done.
What? They are? Super job!
*Caldari Militia? Yes, I just looked on today's kills so far and only the first page:-
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22021063
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22023741
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=22024134
I think stabs must be a much bigger issue in the Cal/Gal warzone then ours. I see people run away a lot, but they usually run away before you even get inside the plex, so not really sure if they're stabbed or not, and removing stabs won't really help if they run away before you can even lock them.
ReplyDeleteYour previous idea of doing something to interdictors to make them useful in low-sec was interesting.
I'm not sure about simply removing the ability to use stabs altogether. Not because I don't think it's stupid because, I think they'll still run away and not give fights. People who don't want to fight, usually find a way not to.
A few minutes after post this blog post - https://zkillboard.com/detail/36909664/
DeleteIt has always bothered me that if someone can't kill something easy enough they want to change the rules to allow easier kills. I say just gimp your tank and add more scrams.Stop trying to just get around a problem by changing mechanics
ReplyDeleteHow about making stabs an active module that requires a bit of cap to activate and a tiny delay to actually work?
ReplyDeleteThen Faction warfare zones could include a NPC-installed device that triple the activation delay and requires the firepower of many battleships over long hours to destroy.
That would make factional warfare more warfare and less farm and having next to no impact on all other situations where stabs are required for legitimate purposes other than farming.
The thing is, people can still easily run away with or without any changes to stabs. Stabs are just a 'just in case' insurance policy. Most FW pilots that run from me do so before I've even landed inside the plex.
DeleteThis would hit the wrong people. As much as I hate stabs, they are legit on haulers imho. The damage decrease on the other hand wouldn't hurt them at all.
DeleteThe problem isn't stabs, it is that there is no penalty for abandoning your plex.
ReplyDeleteThat's not really accurate. A lot of plex farmers never get chased from their plexes at all. So what happens when they leave isn't going to really affect them as much as people think it will.
DeleteYes, this is the real problem. If you deal with warp core stabilizers then you have to deal with cloaks; if you then deal with cloaks next you have to deal with ships that just move really fast but stay in the complex. And if you finally deal with those, then people will just run away warping from one faction warfare complex to the next.
DeleteSomething needs to be done to make it disadvantageous to abandon your complex.
There are some discussions about this on the forums (but now locked due to lack of activity):
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253352&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3542840#post3542840
Embrace the dual-scram Astero. When you fly one of those you actually become happy when you see a farmer in system because it means a near-guaranteed kill.....
ReplyDeletenot with a 5 second decloak / lock penalty
DeleteBeing able to abandon the plex and the come back to continue is the problem. Nerfing stabs will just result in more farming fit ventures.
ReplyDeleteYes, this is the real problem. If you deal with warp core stabilizers then you have to deal with cloaks; if you then deal with cloaks next you have to deal with ships that just move really fast but stay in the complex. And if you finally deal with those, then people will just run away warping from one faction warfare complex to the next.
ReplyDeleteSomething needs to be done to make it disadvantageous to abandon your complex.
There are some discussions about this on the forums (but now locked due to lack of activity):
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=253352&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3542840#post3542840
Plex capturing mechanic must be changed. Make them locking up something in order to capture it. If you cloak up or warp away before the timer expires, your progress gets nullified. Simple as that. Let them fit as much stabs as they want, those won't help them in capturing plexes.
ReplyDeleteYou can fit to counter a stabbed a farmer very easily. Any ship with four or five mid-slots and dual scram can catch them (Heron, Merlin, Vigil) so I'm not really sure what the problem is apart from the annoyance factor.
ReplyDeleteBut take second and flip the issue. You are a two week old newbie to this game and want to join FW. You have no skills but need to earn isk for skill books and ships etc. What do you do?
Die in a fire in each and every engagement losing ships you can't afford to because you do not know to or cannot PvP?
Do you warp off or cloak every time you see a ship on d-scan?
Or do you fit scrams to your ship and know you can escape if you have to? The last two options (or a combination of the two) are actually the 'smart' option in that scenario. Removing stabs will do nothing.
The root issue you need to adress is farming and how lucrative this sort of activity is in FW. The solution is to simply reduce the LP reward so that farming is just not an attractive option. But nobody in FW seriously wants that becuase everyone is on the saame gravy train.
Problem is there are legitimate stab fits too, I regularly warp a podcat (stabbed but combat fitted ishkur, does fine deeps, has a fine tank but is also stabbed fit ahs been around for years) into what I suspect is bait. If not bait I can still fight, if sudden local spike... toodles! They're also pretty ok at killing dumb fleet tacklers in 0.0
ReplyDeleteI don't think making a single module that has legit purposes unusable is much of an answer the issue is with the plex in the mechanic not with the fits people create to 'bypass' the intended purpose of that mechanic. Changing stabs would be nothing more then fighting symptoms without dealing with the real issue.
You're completely right in calling this out as a god-awful piece of game design, but the broken mechanic isn't warp core stabilisers, it's FW plexing.
ReplyDeleteThat stereotypical Caldari Militia fit is a single-purpose design intended to travel through dangerous space without getting caught and killed. Warp stabilisers are designed to provide an escape mechanism to pilots who have no intention of ever fighting - which is exactly what they are being used for here.
They escape reliably because the farmer is in a highly optimised ship (not) fighting in precisely the kind of engagement it was designed for, while their opponent is in a jack-of-all-trades fit designed to be decent at a wide range of fights. Again, specialist beating generalist in his particular specialisation is functioning exactly as intended.
The problem is that CCP have advertised Faction Warfare as a PvP-oriented playstyle and then built in mechanics that encourage players not to use it for PvP.
In particular, they have:
1) Designed it such that it offers possibly the best combination of ease-of-access, reliability, and profitability for grinding ISK in the game. This means that it attracts large numbers of players who are solely in it for the money and have absolutely no desire to PvP.
2) Implemented the plex system in such a way that fighting in PvP is of no use to said players while they are out trying to earn ISK, but also so that it pushes the PvP population and non-PvP population into regular contact.
Change either or both of those points and warp stabs will instantly cease to be a problem, because everyone in Faction Warfare will actually want to fight. Leave them as they are, and even if warp core stabilisers are nerfed into oblivion the Caldari militia will just find some other way to run away from you. After all, that's what they're being paid for...
I like stabs, they are very useful and provide another option to playing this game. For my industrial ships they are a must have. And in some PvP fits, they do a great job for a few reasons like baiting baits.
ReplyDeleteYou want to make PvP for fun and entertainment, your opponent simply wants to get money. The best reward is offer there with non PvP, so even if you play the same game your play style and theirs have nothing in common.
Reducing plex income to 1/5 and if you get challenged and can hold it the reward is 10x as big. Maybe even stackable, but as long as it is more profitable to not loose your ship than try to fight, your problem will continue.
If you just remove stabs your enemies will warp away once they see you on d-scan (if they know how to use that).
Another Idea would be a "reinforcement" mechanic, where the number of abandonment plexes increases military presence. If you drive off the intruders X times gallente military sends in more NPC forces to defend those "saved" plexes. Any plex spawning in reinforced systems will have a decent number of NPCs (more challenging than those defaults) preventing non prepared ships (like those stabbed ones) to complete them.
If all those "enemy systems" are reinforced because of lacy farmers the real pvp guys of the militia will either fight you or there own lacy farmers to prevent systems from being reinforced. Maybe you are even falling in standing with your military if you fail to complete plexes too often. So you have to complete enough even under pressure instead of running away all the time.
TL;DR: the only solution for your problem is more harsh penalties for abandoning plexes than loosing a ship.
The main problem with stabs is it allows people NOT TO PLAY THE GAME. So long as they have sound on they any number of under 1hour skilled alts while watching a movie. Once their Alarm goes off at 99% shield they warp off. They may loose a ship now and then to alpha or very high dps but the cost of that ship, fitting and free pod travel to home station is more than made up for in the next plex.
ReplyDeleteSo you can't say it's a valid play style for plexers to fit stabs as they are not playing, if they were playing they would see anyone in warp to the acceleration gate on d scan over 30 seconds before they could even be targeted inside the plex and warp off.
I agree with the number of people who have said that warp core stabilizers are not the problem. They are a symptom of the problem. Cloaking devices on faction warfare ships is another symptom. Speed fit attack frigates is another symptom. The problem is that it is far more lucrative to simply run away and go to another complex and then come back once the other guy goes away.
ReplyDeleteI think the best solution is some kind of timer rollback when a pilot leaves range of the button (or cloaks); but then there is the problem of a big gang scaring off all the solo pilots because there's really no benefit to plexing in a gang. The time is the same, but the reward is split a number of ways. It seems like the numbers could be pushed around such that solo is still optimal, but that speed of capture and reward both go up with the size of the gang but with some kind of a hard cap on the capture speed and reward so that large gangs can't just go around capturing systems with no possible resistance.
I agree with the number of people who have said that warp core stabilizers are not the problem. They are a symptom of the problem. Cloaking devices on faction warfare ships is another symptom. Speed fit attack frigates is another symptom. The problem is that it is far more lucrative to simply run away and go to another complex and then come back once the other guy goes away.
ReplyDeleteI think the best solution is some kind of timer rollback when a pilot leaves range of the button (or cloaks); but then there is the problem of a big gang scaring off all the solo pilots because there's really no benefit to plexing in a gang. The time is the same, but the reward is split a number of ways. It seems like the numbers could be pushed around such that solo is still optimal, but that speed of capture and reward both go up with the size of the gang but with some kind of a hard cap on the capture speed and reward so that large gangs can't just go around capturing systems with no possible resistance.
Actually, I seriously think turning the ship pink would solve the problem.
ReplyDeleteYeah, people would do anything for isk, but fly a PINK ship for god's sake? I'm sure no more than 10% of the current farmers would stomach it.
Gully Alex Foyle